I felt the need to post a comment, and I want to put it here too...check out a couple of the comments over there for context, and then take a look at this. Enjoy.
Wow! This is the comment thread that keeps on giving! Frank, I don't think you even need to play "the game" with these guys; it's funny enough as it is.
I would love to see some proof from you guys about all the "constitution a**wiping" and whatnot. If that were actually happening, I would be concerned.
Your best arguments are: wiretapping without warrants and the "secret" prisons where torture happened. I will deal with them both.
First, I was quite worried about the wire-tapping until I read about the details, as published in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and several liberal blogs. You get the best damaging information from those who would like to see the target fall, so if something bad for Bush happens, I'll read about it from his detractors.
It seems that those wire-taps were only used on Americans when they were part of an international call to known terrorists, and when they used key words, like "bombs". I, for one, would like to see those calls watched. Do you think those kind of calls last long enough for the FBI to run down to the local (hah!) FISA court? I concede that Bush should have asked congress to change the law to one he could work with, but I'm ok with stop-gap measures to plug the dam in the meantime. Then again, FDR (and every subsequent President) ordered tapped phones with wild abandon, in similar circumstances, and look at how the country ended up. Maybe I should be worried.
Now, the "secret" prisons where torture happened. Again, I read everything I could about it from the usual suspects before making a decision. And, I'm sorry, but sleep deprivation is not torture. The waterboarding stuff (which I have researched extensively, and I will give you a disertation, if you are actually interested) is harder to dismiss, so I won't. It's a rough treatment. It has not, however, crossed the line into unbelievably bad torture. "Torture" to me, involves electrodes attatched to nuts, and possibly carbatterires, when there isn't actually whipping and balls and chains.
The people we're dealing with aren't exactly nice guys, and if we don't leave physical marks, then I think I'm ok with it. Remember that when they get their hands on an American, they often behead them. That's not exactly torture, but it's also not very nice.
Also, remember the class with which our military and government servants act. When something horrible happens (like when one of our own does horrible things), we own up to it. Abu Ghraib was not reported by a news agency. It was first disclosed in a Pentagon Press release, following a preliminary investigation run by the military after recieving a tip from their own. People who break the ROE's (which are far too tight, and lead to many unneccesary deaths. The only "appropriate" level of military force is the "overwhelming" level) are tried, convicted, and sent to jail - and that doesn't happen very often. Not because of cover ups, but because of the class with which our American military servicemen, (republicans or democrats alike; it doesn't matter, they're all Americans) act in every situation.Like I said above, I'd love to hear some more detailed claims from you guys, but I think you'll just give me more propaganda. Now, I like propaganda. It's fun to study, and it makes for some amazing posters and bumper stickers, but it isn't really good for making decisions and opinions. I don't think most things that have happened in the past few years lead up to fascism. If you'd like to see some real fascism, take a look at Russia or Venezuela. Until we start rounding up people like you, who "speak truth to power," into internment camps, I'll watch, wait, and not go off my rocker. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed my reasoned rant.